8 Keys to Healthy Aging (NOT Nutrition or Exercise) – BioTrust Radio #14

Healthy Aging

What do you think is the most important factor for living long and living well? Eating healthy? Being physically active? There’s no debate that those play a role, but there’s more to the story. In this episode of the BioTrust Radio health and fitness podcast, we reveal 8 keys to healthy aging, including what Harvard researchers have discovered to be MOST critical for living longer and happier. Enjoy!

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In this information-packed episode of the BioTrust Radio health and fitness podcast, Shawn and Tim revisit the topic of healthy aging. While exercise and nutrition are certainly keys to living long and living well, there’s more to the story, and this episode is dedicated to peeling back the layers of healthy aging and providing you with practical takeaways to help you enjoy a flourishing life.

So, to tune into the show to find out exactly what makes a good life. Here are some of the things you can expect to learn:

● Start where you are. Healthy aging is a journey. Pick one or two places you want to start and just focus on those things.

● According to Harvard researchers, the single-most important factor associated with happiness and satisfaction in life is the quality of your relationships. “Loneliness kills. It’s as powerful as smoking or alcoholism,” according to Harvard researchers Robert Waldinger.

● Community and being linked to a social support network are key components to healthy aging because they make you feel connected to your environment.

● Your mindset dictates your happiness and where you’re going to go in life.

● Attitude is a choice. Our reactions are a choice. We can’t always choose what happens around us, but we choose how we react to it.

● Having a sense of purpose is critical for healthy aging. According to Patrick Hill, Assistant Professor in Psychology at Carleton University, “Having purpose in life appears to widely buffer against mortality risk across the adult years.”

● Think about your words and how they affect people—including yourself. Are you self-critical? Do you engage in a lot of negative self-banter? Do you find yourself saying, “Gosh, I’m so stupid,” or “I’m just a fat loser”? If so, change your words!

● Failure is NOT final. It’s an opportunity to learn and grow. Think of failure as experimental. It means you’re trying. Now you’re one step closer. Now you know what it’s not.

● Challenge yourself. Learn a new instrument. Learn a new language. Take a different route to work. Put your belt on a different way. Do things different to challenge your fluid intelligence and keep your brain young.

● Stress management is a critical component of healthy aging, and there are many ways to boost resilience, energy levels, and feelings of well-being, including grounding, spending time outdoors in the sun, deep breathing, meditation, yoga, Tai Chi, taking a walk, forest bathing, and more!

● Remember, this too shall pass. Don’t make a mountain out of a mole hill.

● Circadian rhythms and sleep quality, which are intricately related, are tremendously important for healthy aging and quality of life. Find out how you can help “fix a broken clock” and improve your sleep hygiene.

● Recommended reading:

  • The Four Agreements (Don Miguel Ruiz)
  • Start with Why (Simon Sinek)

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Healthy Aging

Shawn: Hey, this is Shawn and Tim, and we’re back with another episode of BioTrust Radio. Thanks for your support. Thanks again for listening. And hopefully you caught the last show on healthy aging tips. We’re back with more exciting information on healthy aging. And all of us are aging, no matter how old we are. So I think this is good information, basically, on how to be a healthy human. Healthy aging is not necessarily just for those that are in their 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, and beyond; it’s really for everyone. This is how to how to maintain a good body throughout your time with it.

Tim: Yeah, definitely Shawn. We’re covering a lot of ground here, and I just want to remind folks to start where you are. Healthy aging is a journey. All of it is a journey, and where you’re at now is probably not where you want to be eventually, in whatever area of life, but let’s specifically talk about your physical and mental body. So, even though there’s a lot of action items, a lot of practical take-homes, just pick one or two things, a couple of places you want to start and just focus on those things, and you just add to it. Because this is a journey. It’s not like 8 weeks or 12 weeks. You can narrow it down with each one of these things, where you’re working on it, but just a reminder to start where you are, evaluate areas where you can improve and just pick one or two things that you can start to add to your routine.

Shawn: Healthy aging is about making lifestyle change that you stick with versus a radical change that you may or may not keep up with, like we see with diets and resolutions and all that kind of stuff. No matter what the change is, if you’re drinking six cokes a day, cutting down to three would be great. I mean, someone’s going to say, “You need to stop drinking all this soda. It’s bad for you.” Sure, but what’s good for you is to make a change that you’re going to keep.

Tim: Yes.

Shawn: And so it’s hard to just completely deprive yourself and then you end up frustrated and throwing it all away and then just going so far the other direction maybe. So just do what you can, what Tim’s saying. And I think that leads into a really important one for me, and this is mindset. Your mindset dictates your happiness, healthy aging, and where you’re going to go in life.

And there’s this incredible study. It’s considered possibly the greatest study of all time, in terms of it’s over 75 years old and still going. It was funded by Harvard, I think, back in World War II, where they actually looked at men that were working in affluent areas of Boston and poorer areas of Boston. So they wanted to see if there was a socio‑economic factor on health and longevity. And what they found was interesting. Regardless of where you lived, and then later on it didn’t matter whether you’re male or female or whatever, what matters is the number one factor for healthy aging is happiness and the quality of your relationships.

They would do these examinations with people several times a year. They’d sit down and talk to him about their relationships and they’d also do all the bloodwork and all the tests. And it wasn’t this level of cholesterol. Even though we think activity is very important—it is—and nutrition is very important. We’ll get into that and we discussed some of that in the last episode on healthy aging. But quality of relationships is very important. If you wall yourself off, if you’re someone that thinks I’m better off alone, or if you are lonely, this is not a good thing.

One of the biggest factors that we’ve seen with the blue zones, which is areas where people live the longest, and they’ve and they’ve tried to analyze why around the world, and it’s a similar thing. Yes, there’s like the Mediterranean diet with some of these people, and we can get into that too. But one of the biggest factors in places like Sardinia, Italy where I was, which was a blue zone, and I was there with my foreign exchange student and her family. They sit down, extended family, they’ll sit down for two or three hours and have like a communal fellowship where it’s really enjoying each other, listening to each other, talking. It’s so much more than just eating or drinking the red wine and the Mediterranean. That’s all great, but having the support structure around you is so critical.

Tim: Yeah, 100%, Shawn. We’ve heard a lot about the Mediterranean diet and there’s no question that it’s one of the healthiest types of diets to follow. But my experience, the Mediterranean diet is not just a diet, it’s the Mediterranean lifestyle.

Shawn: Right.

Tim: I don’t want to get off on a tangent here, but even things like paleo, primal, keto, those things have surpassed diet status and have turned into lifestyle status, at least for the folks who maintain it, right.

Shawn: Sure.

Tim: So I think that’s important. And then you also see with all those different communities, that’s communal. And I think humans, by nature, we are social creatures. Now granted, we have very differing levels of introvert/extrovert, so we have to understand if we’re more introverted or extroverted, and how much energy we have to give away, and how much we thrive on giving away energy or receiving energy from others. I think it’s important to identify where we sit. But there’s no question that social support, community is very important for overall healthy aging.

A great example of this, so we just recently wrapped up a 12-week shape-up challenge, so weight loss challenge on our BioTrust Facebook group, which if you head over to Facebook and search “BioTrust VIP,” you can find it and we’ll give you special access because you’re one of our awesome listeners. Well, this time around when we did this weight loss challenge, we did it among this Facebook group. And by and large, this was the most successful challenge that we’ve had. So in the past when we’ve done these things, typically 5-10% of the people that joined finish it.

Shawn: Right.

Tim: So that’s pretty average. We had 40% of the people finish.

Shawn: That’s great.

Tim: 40%! But not only did they just cross the finish line, they ran through the finish line. And what I mean by that is that, on average, those folks that finished, lost 10% of their initial starting weight, which has tremendous health implications. So, they didn’t just finish, they were awesomely successful. And when I asked in their follow-up questionnaire, what were the major factors that helped you. And we had some huge prizes online, like a trip to Maui, $2,000 cash. Like big prizes that would normally help people go-go-go, or you’d think. They said that the community, the social support of our VIP community; whether it was the coaches or just other people who were going through the same things, that was the number one motivating factor. That was the number one thing that kept them going.

Shawn: That’s huge. I think that the CrossFit phenomenon, that’s one of the reasons. Or now you’re seeing other exercise programs that are similar, like Orange Theory and Camp Gladiator. That community really inspires you. I mean, think about it. If it’s just you going to the gym. You’re tired, the alarm clock goes off, and you’re like, “I can sleep in today.” But if we had a whole group of people, like, don’t we all look back on school fondly for those reasons? Because we had so many friends, right?

Tim: Right.

Shawn: And now we might have one or two people that we really care about that we interact with on a daily basis besides our spouse, and we don’t have the same level of friendships that we had in high school and college and things like that. But if you have this community, that’s interesting. So, that’s what happens with this exercise. And I think that’s a very important factor and it doesn’t need to be just around exercise. You can do Meetup groups. Those are phenomenal. They’re amazing. You can find a Meetup group for anything: scrapbooking, classic movies, whatever. It’s so cool, like all these Meetup groups.

Tim: Game of Thrones.

Shawn: Yeah, exactly. Viewing parties and whatever. And I encourage you to find new friends, to challenge yourself, and mindset—going back to that is so important—that you choose happiness. It’s not a destination. If you’re foregoing, you’ll say like, “When I get to retirement, that’s when I’ll be happy,” or you have like these places, these milestones where “then I’ll be happy.” Like if I lose 50 pounds, then I’ll be happy. That’s a very destructive thing and you may never get to that place. You have to be happy where you are, and because you’re happy and you love yourself, you’re going to make some changes. And that’s a very different, like a fundamental paradigm shift in your mindset. So I would say where your mind goes, your body goes, and your health goes.

So a big part of healthy aging is doing exercise, which we’ve seen it like combat depression, more than just the bodyweight stuff we’ve talked about. I think people that exercise are more successful even socio-economically. So doing these things are very important like breathing exercises, meditation, having a friendship and communal support. All these kinds of things help. So can you think of like some other things like along these lines that you would do?

Tim: Yeah, I think just the mindset thing that you mentioned, just to kind of build on that for a second, is such an important component of healthy aging. There’s an example that comes to my mind. And again, I have a daughter who is 15-16 months old, and she easily gives me just a great sense of purpose in life. However, as like anybody else, I can be distracted. Say like after a long day of work or something like that, there’s a lot of things, maybe there’s things I didn’t finish, something in my home and I finished those things or stress, or whatever, which we’ll get into stress in a second, too.

But I know that before I go into see her at the end of the day, that I need to shift my mindset, or at the beginning of the day. No matter how tired I am, I need to bring energy, I need to bring positivity, I need to help guide her through her life. And so that’s one example of a mindset thing to me, is just that to me that’s a choice. Attitude is a choice. Our reactions are a choice. We can’t always choose what happens around us, but we choose how we react to it.

So I think that I love that you mentioned the mindset thing. And to me that ties into a sense of purpose. There’s a quote that I want to share from Patrick Hill. He’s an Assistant Professor in Psychology at Carleton University. And he talks about how purpose promotes healthy aging, no matter how you are. He said, “Having purpose in life appears to widely buffer against mortality risk across the adult years.” So basically, we just need to examine and just have a purpose. What is our purpose in life?

Shawn: I mean, you sometimes see this with people that retire, that they suddenly get very infirmed or ill and it’s really, I think, related to that too, that once you lose a purpose. Work often gives us a huge sense of purpose. I want to work till the day I die. I just want to find the right type of work, where you have the purpose, where you feel fulfilled. The idea of just not working, period, actually kind of freaks me out and I can’t imagine that. [laughs] But those are phenomenal points.

I would encourage people to look at some books. We were just talking about “Start With Why” in-between these podcasts, Tim and I were. That’s Simon Sinek, and that’s a great review of your potential purpose and then the direction that you should go. I know another book that was fundamental for my mindset is, “The Four Agreements.” One thing, he talks about in there is like your words are very powerful. He calls it black magic. He’s a shaman in the book, and he calls it black magic when you use like these terrible words to hurt people. What’s that, “Sticks and stones”? They really do hurt people and you can have an agreement by believing what somebody’s saying about you is true, and not realizing that they are projecting their negativity on you. It’s really related to their insecurity.

Tim: Right.

Shawn: And that’s one of the agreements is “Don’t take anything personal.” And I think that’s a huge one to learn over time. Don’t take things personal. But also think about your words and how they’re affecting people, including yourself. When you say stuff like, “Gosh, I’m so stupid,” or like “I’m just a fat loser anyway,” or whatever it is, think about the words you’re saying about people and about yourself, and change those words. It’s amazing if you change your words that are coming out of your mouth, how different your life can be.

Tim: 100%

Shawn: Right?

Tim: 100%. I just published a blog article on BioTrust and it was all about becoming a mental ninja, so I thought, “Sharpening Your Mental Ninja Skills,” and all about this mindset stuff. I mean, weight loss is a microcosm of that. We’re dealing with people who want to lose weight because we are so self-critical. And we’re really our own worst enemies, no doubt about it.

Shawn: Yes.

Tim: So, we’ll link to that blog article in the show notes, because we could talk a whole show about that. But one quick thing on that is just—and I don’t want to sound too cheeky or just like overly‑optimistic, because we’re genuinely optimistic about things, I think, and speak that way to each other. But I think that we tend to view things through a failure filter. Like we have these little failure glasses on. Instead of looking at challenges as growth opportunities and learning experiences, we’re looking at them as failures and setbacks and things like that. But if you flip it and you have a challenge come at you, view it as an opportunity to grow. Like just put on your success-filtered glasses and look at how this can help you, how this can help others. And just the quick change in mindset, man, it’s invigorating, it’s inspiring, as opposed to demoralizing and just setting you back.

Shawn: A fascinating thing. I read a lot on this inspiration, motivation, success stuff, and I know you do too. That just made me think of they’ve shown that people that are highly successful individuals view failure not as an end to itself that’s this terrible thing, but it means that you’re experimenting and they view all these as experiments not as this awful thing that just makes you a loser. It means that you’re trying, right?

Tim: Right.

Shawn: That you’re out there, you’re trying, and they view these as a series of experiments and that one of them is going to work. Okay, now I know what it’s not, moving on. Now I know what it’s not, moving on.

Tim: Right.

Shawn: And that’s the mindset of a winner. A winner doesn’t just get it right at the beginning. A winner is out there trying, repeatedly failing way more, way more than someone that isn’t highly successful. They fail constantly.

Tim: Right.

Shawn: I forget, like Michael Jordan.

Tim: Michael Jordan. That was exactly what I was thinking [laughs]

Shawn: How many game-winning shots has he missed?

Tim: I don’t know. I don’t want to botch it, but it’s like 30,000 or something. It wasn’t that many, but it was like all these missed shots. But we don’t remember those. We remember these game-winning buzzer beaters and he’s the greatest player of all time right.

Shawn: And the same with Ted Williams, the greatest hitter of all time. He had like a .400 batting average. That means he’s still failing. You know, feel comfortable with taking these experiments. Let yourself have that mental freedom and don’t avoid going out and challenging yourself, because the true essence of life happens outside of the comfort zone. If you stay in that comfort zone, nothing great will ever happen to you.

Tim: Exactly.

Shawn: You need to challenge yourself if you’re interested in healthy aging. And it’s just like all the data on challenging your brain and keeping your brain healthy, and we could jump into that. If you learn an instrument or you learn a new language, or you take a different way to work each day, or you put your belt on the opposite way, you tie your shoes in the opposite. Whatever. We get stuck in this rut of what they call “crystallized intelligence” where we’re just doing the same thing, the same way, over and over. And we get very efficient at it, but you’re not challenging your brain, the fluid side of intelligence that you need to maintain these different parts of your brain and keep a young healthy brain.

Tim: Right.

Shawn: It’s not inevitable, like we were saying. But healthy aging takes work. You can continue to challenge your brain. One thing that happens, like we were saying, when you retire you might be more sedentary, you might have lost purpose, you might have less relationships that you had at work. You might be watching more TV and you might be maybe watching the news more, which is negative quite often.

You can see how all these things can start to add up and you’re not challenging yourself in the same way you were before. You’re not having the same social support that you did before. All these things are important to think through as you think how you’re going to age and the manner in which you choose to do it.

Tim: Yeah, absolutely, Shawn. You talked about the mindset thing, that there’s the growth mindset versus the fixed mindset, and what you’re talking about is having this growth mindset where I don’t have this fixed resources I have to push myself to get outside my comfort zone and things like that. And one thing that it also reminds me of is that when we have that fixed mindset and we have that kind of failure mindset, I think we add a lot of undue stress to ourselves, where we just don’t feel like we can handle it. Well, stress isn’t inherently bad. We need a certain amount of stress to grow.

Shawn: Sure.

Tim: And so how we view stress also affects our body and healthy aging, and so maybe we talk about the role of stress management. If you’re constantly viewing stress and things that are coming at you as a negative thing, you’re going to have negative reactions in your body. Whereas, if you view it as a challenge and get better…

Shawn: Get growth opportunity, like you were saying.

Tim: Stress is also, and learning how to manage stress, is an important component of healthy aging as well. So maybe we’ll just talk about a couple tactics and a couple things that we can do to better manage stress as we get older.

Shawn: Yeah, I think, again, having the healthy support around you, making time to eat meals in the fashion that we’re talking about, prepare your food, make it an enjoyable experience like with other friends or family, doing things like grounding, walking around without shoes on and walking out in the grass if you can and grounding yourself, literally. It’s figurative and literal. There’s other things like sunbathing, getting your exposure to the sun and getting that light, that blue light, that that recharges you. Deep breathing exercises, meditation, obviously doing things like Tai Chi and yoga, and stretching.

If you’re feeling burned out or exhausted and you’re sitting there at work, you’re not going to be productive at that point.

Tim: Exactly.

Shawn: So just go take a walk. Go relax, go take a walk, think about something else, get some blood flowing, breathe, and just take a few minutes. Then come back and revisit that thing, and you’re going to find that you’re able to tackle it. There’s a verse. My dad is a pastor, so this comes to mind of “this too shall pass.”

Tim: Right.

Shawn: Sometimes we make this little event, this molehill into the mountain, and it’s not necessarily the mountain. You’re going to survive this, most likely. So it’s okay, you’re going to get through it, and it all has to do with mindset.

Tim: Yeah, exactly, Shawn. That reminds me, one of my favorite things to do for stress management is to walk outdoors. There’s many benefits to it, like you’ve talked about. Just first of all physical activity is a stress relief and also gets creativity going in your brain. So, a lot of times, for me, if I’m stuck on something, I’ll take a break, take a walk and like I just wish I had my computer in front of me while I was walking because all these ideas come to me.

But there’s an activity called “forest bathing.” There’s a Japanese name for it. I can’t remember. I’m not even going to try to pronounce it. But we’ve written some things on it on the blog, too, but that’s a highly effective form of stress management. Basically, what forest bathing is is it means just taking a very leisure walk in nature. Obviously, if you live in the city, you may not have access to a forest or anything like that.

Shawn: It could be a park.

Tim: Yeah, just get as close as you can to nature. The more greenery that you’re around, certainly the more fresh oxygen that there’s going to be there. But there’s just so much value to being outdoors. So, lower cortisol with forest bathing. But when we introduce cortisol, we could probably talk about sleep and sleep related to healthy aging, because we tend to stay in rhythm.

Shawn: Circadian rhythm.

Tim: Exactly. So, forest bathing is something that I like to do. Again, the neighborhood I live in there’s plenty of nature around, so that’s where I would go for that. But if you have access to a park or something like that, just take a leisure walk. You’re not going for a certain amount of steps, you’re not going for a certain amount of time. You’re just taking a slow casual walk. And like you said, Shawn, is let your mind escape. So, this concept of mindfulness, which is really just being aware of where you’re at and what you’re feeling and thinking and things like that. Take that with you on that walk.

And you might even think about how your feet are interacting with the ground. And if you’re brave enough—I mean, I live in Austin, Texas, so this is not uncommon—walking in your bare feet so you get the benefits of grounding, and just start to be aware of how that feels throughout your body. Maybe just walk around your yard in the grass, whatever it is. So that’s something that I enjoy.

But just to kind of transition from that to cortisol and sleep, cortisol isn’t inherently bad. It’s actually a very important hormone to have, it’s just that a lot of us tend to get out of rhythm with it. Under normal circumstances we would see a peak in cortisol in the morning as we wake up, and tend to drop across the day, and have lowest levels typically at nighttime when we’re about to go to sleep, at the same time that melatonin right is increasing.

And if we’re not managing our stress properly, that cortisol can creep up at the end of the day, and this can lead to sleep-related issues. There’s a lot of things going on there with sleep hygiene and melatonin, blue light certainly, and not getting enough sun exposure during the day. But it does tie in to sleep, so if you have noticed that sleep quality has gone down and you have a hard time going to sleep, then paying attention to stress management is going to be a really important thing for you and healthy aging.

Shawn: One thing that doesn’t get mentioned a whole lot, that can play a role in maybe being stressed too late in a day, is, well several things, like when do arguments usually happen between significant other? Usually like later in the evening, right? When do you watch very stressful type shows or movies? Usually later in the evening, right? Game of Thrones and whatever. Maybe like you should just save that for a Saturday or whatever.

I think some people, depending on what’s going on in your life, if you’re already stressed, you need to think about—there’s a term in computer programming, “garbage in/garbage out”—you need to think about what you’re being exposed to and minimize those things that might be adding stress to you.

Tim: Yeah, exactly.

Shawn: And this has been great. I think circadian rhythm sets that body clock. Certainly talking about blue light, getting your sun or using a blue light device, if you’re really prone to it like I am with the seasonal affective disorder, especially on gray days or winter days or whatever, or if I’m traveling, using like a Philips blue light—I think it’s there I think it’s Philips GoLITE BLU Light, or whatever. Using something like that is very helpful, but if not, certainly on sunny days get out there and get some sun. Do what Tim’s talking about, either forest bathing or sunbathing. Get that fresh air.

And then later in the day, think about your exposure to your devices, your TVs, your cell phones, your tablets, computers, whatever. There are different apps that you can get, like f.lux for your computer, PC or Mac I believe. And on Android and Apple devices, there’s Night Shift and Night Light features on either operating system. So you can do that and it helps.

I would definitely say the darker the room, the more extreme the effect is to your eyes. So if you’re in bed and you’re looking at your device and the room is dark, this is like really powerful at affecting your circadian rhythm. You won’t be releasing melatonin and setting that ball rolling to fall asleep in the right way. And that has an impact on all your hormones and the whole endocrine cascade. And people that are sleep-deprived as a result of maybe using their devices and watching all the stressful stuff right before they go to bed or whatever, then these people have a higher risk of weight gain, diabetes, stroke, heart attack. I mean, it’s dramatic. Not getting quality sleep is a problem and so many Americans are sleep-deprived, and I think this is playing a big role. What we’re doing late at night has really changed from 10-20 years ago.

Tim: Yeah, 100%. You rattled off a bunch of great take-home points for healthy aging there, Shawn. I think we’ll probably have to take another episode to talk about circadian rhythms and fixing those broken clocks. But just to reiterate what you’re saying, most people aren’t getting enough of the bright blue light exposure during the day. Even if we’re sitting inside an office building like this, the light that’s emitting from these lights in the ceiling is thousands of orders less than the sunlight.

Shawn: Right.

Tim: So it’s not as effective at setting the clock, but it’s enough. These lights are enough, at the end of the day, when we shouldn’t be exposed to as much blue light, to suppress melatonin production. So limiting our exposure then. And another thing is like the blue blockers, the blue light blocker sunglasses. There’s actually a study that just came out. I think folks wore them for 4-6 hours, maybe after 6 p.m. or something like that, and they got better sleep. So there’s definitely some more research coming out showing that that blocking the blue light can be helpful in improving sleep quality.

Again, like we talked about before, we have to take a look at the whole picture. What’s going on and maybe not implementing everything at once, but just trying one or two things at a time.

Shawn: Yeah. Hundreds of thousands of years ago, we wouldn’t have been exposed to all this light. It would have been dark. Once it’s dark, it’s dark. And then all that stuff about lunacy comes from the term “lunar.” So when there’s a full moon, like people were crazier, and I think it was because it was affecting your circadian rhythm, potentially, so you were getting some kind of light exposure. But normally, we would have had nowhere near the light that we’re exposed to now.

Tim: Right.

Shawn: There’s the term “light pollution” in all the cities, that there’s so much light being cast that you can’t even see the stars. We just have so many lights. When you’re up there in a plane sometimes, you see a sea of lights. So it’s a very different experience than we would have had a thousand years ago, a hundred years ago.

Tim: Yeah.

Shawn: I mean, it’s amazing. So, we weren’t meant for this, so definitely something to be cognizant of in your healthy aging.

Tim: Exactly.

Metabolic Age Quiz

Shawn: I think we can wrap this show on healthy aging up.

Tim: Yeah, we covered a lot of ground again.

Shawn: Yeah, and I appreciate everyone listening and really thank you for making BioTrust radio go, and we’ll talk to you guys soon.

Tim: Yeah, thanks everybody.